Jan 07 2009

What Price Victory?

Category: freedom,gay marriage,judges,libertyamuzikman @ 11:34 am

In California, the passage of Proposition 8, defining marriage as between a man and a woman, is being challenged and is now before the California Supreme Court.  This is the very same court that struck down the first protection of traditional marriage, Proposition 22, passed in 2000.  In that case four members of the court overruled a 61.4% voting majority and declared the proposition unconstitutional.  In my opinion there is very little reason to think it won’t happen again.  What is of great concern to me is the outcry, the lobbying and the expectation of so many in this state seeking to obtain through the court system what they couldn’t get through the ballot box.  Both the California Governor and Lieutenant Governor have joined the chorus of those expressing hope that Prop 8 will be overturned by the court.  It has become common and sadly acceptable for the losers in a election to plan and execute a reversal of results by means of the court system and sympathetic judges.

I know this is a very hot-button issue.  But regardless of your opinion about gay marriage step back and think about this for a moment.  Is there any more precious right we have as citizens of this country than to vote?  Is liberty and freedom better expressed anywhere than in the voting booth?  Yet we seem to be perfectly fine with giving the most undemocratic, the most unaccountable and the most unrepresentative branch of government broad sweeping powers to make and change the Constitution as they see fit, taking the right away from us, the voters, We the People.

The people of California have spoken clearly twice in the last decade.  The voting majority want marriage to be defined as one man and one woman. Every vote by definition has a winner and a loser.  But if the loser can manipulate a system whereby they become the winner then does it not make the voting process a sham?

If Prop 8 is overturned the political left, the gay lobby, their sympathizers and supporters will be dancing in the streets. But if you look very closely you’ll see their dancing feet are trampling one of our most cherished and basic rights. And if that does happen then I will have one question…

Why bother to vote?

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11 Responses to “What Price Victory?”

  1. Hello says:

    “Why both to vote”

    My thoughts, exactly.

  2. Hello says:

    “Is there any more precious right we have as citizens of this country than to vote?”

    I can’t think of any…but isn’t it odd that one of the best exercises of our rights (which are supposed to be so wonderful and life-altering) as Americans is to vote? A bit anti-climactic, don’t you think? Not to say necessarily that voting isn’t important and doesn’t have a place, but I think this situation with Prop 8 hints at the reality that if you sell out for America, you are going to be horribly disappointed in the end. Why? Because even when we exercise the ‘sacred’ right of voting, it is easily trampled on by the higher-ups in the system, who know how to play the game a little bit better than we do.

  3. Kira says:

    This hugely bites. They need to get over it. Typical liberals, throwing fits like a bunch of 3 years because they didn’t get their way. Boo-hoo. Whine and cry and cry and whine. What about Proposition 4, the one that requires parents of minors to be notified before said minors have abortions? I don’t see that being fought.. It should! For that matter, why isn’t it being fought? Is it being fought and I missed something?

  4. amuzikman says:

    Dear Hello
    I find it not in the least “odd” that voting is “one of the best exercises of our rights”. And I do indeed believe that right is “wonderful” and it has been “life-altering” for thousands who have come to our shores seeking those rights here and leaving behind countries that did not offer those rights to their people. As far as “anti-climactic” is concerned perhaps you should take a stroll through Arlington National Cemetery or one of the 20 US military cemeteries in Western Europe and ask those buried in the graves what they think.

    I don’t know you or anything about you but I suspect you may be rather young, given your use of the term “sell-out”. Because if you were a bit older you’d know the word people used to use to describe their undiluted allegiance to America – the word is “patriotism”.

    Prop 8, and the voting on Prop 8 is a perfect example of they way we resolve issues, settle disputes, and reconcile differences. We do it peaceably, without bloodshed. There was NOTHING wrong with the voting process. If I may be so bold I think what is wrong is people like you who describe it as a “game” to be played, which is my point exactly. If we all do not hold value in our right to vote and if we all do not respect the outcome, and honor the honest results – even if we don’t like the results – then it is just a game, and we do indeed become powerless, impotent and subject to the whims of those you call “the higher-ups”. Older folks have a word for that too – it’s called “tyranny”.

    The world has never before witnessed such a force for good in this world as The United Sates of America. What a shame that there are so few willing to still “sell out” to the idea that we are indeed a great nation, blessed by God.

  5. enharmonic says:

    amuzikman says, “The world has never before witnessed such a force for good in this world as The United Sates of America. What a shame that there are so few willing to still “sell out” to the idea that we are indeed a great nation, blessed by God.”

    Many in America today, even Christians, cannot see any good in our country and wish to make sin the law of the land. The Bible speaks to this attitude here: Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
    Isa 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

  6. harmonicminer says:

    Hey Enharmonic, great minds and all that… here is a link to a post from October 10, 2008. What’s happened does seem to be that people have learned say with a straight face that up is down, left is right, hot is cold, and wrong is right.

  7. Hello says:


    I do not know you, but from what I read from this blog you are a professor at a Christian university, so I am going to assume that you are a Christian. That being the case, I am intrigued by what you said:

    “The world has never before witnessed such a force for good in this world as The United Sates of America.”

    Do you really, truly, in the core of your being, believe this? You say this of the country that has been responsible for the deaths of more people than any other in history…that enslaved one particular people group for over 100 years, all the while masquerading as a nation founded on biblical principles…that every day approves the abortion of thousands of innocent children…that systematically eradicated the native peoples of this land, justifying its actions with talk of ‘the white man’s burden’ and Manifest Destiny…that has relegated many people groups to second-class status at various times in its history, based merely on ethnicity or country of origin…need I go on? Do you, honestly, truly believe what you have said? The greatest force for good the world has ever seen? Wow.

    Now, is it one of the better (best?) modern nation-states. Absolutely. Is it the greatest force for good this world has ever seen? If it is, then woe to us Christians, for we have failed.

    I don’t say this to be mean or derisive toward you, but I feel strongly that some Christians in America have put FAR too much stock in America’s role in securing goodness on this earth. Even at its absolute best, hanging chads, senate seats for sale to the highest bidder, and Roe v. Wade can happen. I MUST believe that we have a greater hope than America, not only in the life to come, but in THIS life.

    Enharmonic and harmonicminer:
    Do you believe that Isaiah was intending to speak against those who would criticize the United States of America in the year 2009? I would venture that was nowhere in the author’s mind as those words were written down.

  8. amuzikman says:

    Dear Hello

    It did not take long for this discussion to morph from the original subject (the right to vote) into a “bash the United States” session, did it? Frankly I am not surprised. You have a lot of company – a couple generations of public education students subjected to a cadre of leftist liberal teachers and professors who incessantly beat the drum that the problem is America. I’m curious – have you ever studied history beyond the confines of public education?

    My short reply to you is this. If, indeed you find my perspective preposterous then I invite you to tell me where you’d rather live. And if I may be so bold – if you truly believe the founding principles of our nation are little more than a “masquerade” then perhaps you would do well to spend some time living in another “nation-state” for a while.

    And as for me there is not, not has there been a “nation-state” I would trade for this one. And yes, I do really truly, in the core of my being believe this.

    (Longer reply to follow as time permits)

  9. enharmonic says:

    I suspect you have read Greg Boyd’s book, “The Myth of A Christian Nation” (I just finished it). You sound just like him. The evils that have been performed in this country (however terrible they have been) simply pale in comparison to that of other countries that have come before. Having said that, I do not believe this country has much left in the ‘righteousness’ basket. We have abandoned a basically biblical worldview that we started out with. What has made this country great has been the opportunity for the truth of the gospel to be spread around the world by American missionaries; something Great Britian did when “the sun never set on the British Empire.” (They started losing their position in the world when they stopped preaching the truth at home.) Also, a vast number of born-again believers impacted their own sphere of influence which made their neighborhoods safe. Sadly, this has been lost. I remember in the 1950’s and 60’s when few people in America locked their doors at night. Parents didn’t worry about letting their child go to the neighbor’s house. The ‘sexual revolution’ had not yet done it’s dirty work in bringing us Rov v. Wade and thus the blood of innocent life was not on our hands. We were affluent by world standards of the time but divorce didn’t as often leave children’s lives broken. It’s never been perfect here in the U.S. and that has never been the point. You quote the same tired liberal stuff that always gets said. In case you forgot, more American lives were lost liberating slaves in this country than in all our other wars combined. Very few Americans were actually slave owners.

    By the way, where did you get the idea that this is the “country that has been responsible for the deaths of more people than any other in history.” I have never heard anyone, even the most liberal of liberals out there, make such a claim. Can you give specifics and cite your source?

  10. enharmonic says:

    P.S. My source for civil war numbers is at this link http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm. There are numerous sites and books with the same statistics. Pretty easy to verify.

  11. Hello says:


    You said that this turned into a ‘bash America session’, but I disagree. The point I was trying to make (and I believe that I made it) was that in light of all the horrible things that America has been a part of/responsible for, calling it the ‘greatest force of good the word has ever seen’ is either
    1. a sad reflection on the influence that the Kingdom of God has had on the world, or
    2. False

    My assertion is that what you said is false, and that NO nation will ever be the greatest force for good in the world. I think you probably misunderstood me (which is ok!), because you proceeded to tell me that I ought to go live somewhere else if I don’t think America is all that great. But remember, I said:
    “Now, is it [America] one of the better (best?) modern nation-states. Absolutely.”
    So, I hope you do not read me as just another America-bashing hypocrite who enjoys the fruits of other peoples’ labor while simultaneously condemning their efforts.

    Let me be clear. I am not anti-American. I am pro-Kingdom. And I believe very strongly that if we as Christians must not abandon our allegiance to God’s Kingdom in favor of an earthly kingdom (whether its America, Iraq, or Zimbabwe). However, as I said I believe that much “patriotism” (Wwhich I interpret as, ‘I like where I am from’) among Christians in America is really nationalism (which I interpret as, ‘Where I am from is way better than where you are from, and I cannot conceive of a credible position that states otherwise.’) You can use other terms if you like, but I believe the sentiment is true.

    So, America is where I happen to live, and while i don’t think its worse than most (if any) other countries on earth, I have a contention with anyone who maintains that it is the graetest force for good that the world has ever seen (for reasons I have already detailed).

    Your statement: “And as for me there is not, not has there been a “nation-state” I would trade for this one,” was, again, not my point.

    By the way, I was in public school for 4 years in high school and took 1 year of world history, 1 of US history, and 1 of economics/US government. I attended private schools for grades 1-8 and college, taking US history with a very kind but vey nationalistic professor in the latter. I will confess, it was a turn-off. Perhaps I was corrupted by my high school US history teacher?

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